Video games and shiz

[Mommar]

Well, now that I've got my Cube for a good few weeks, and have aquired five titles already, and logged many many hours on the controller I think it's time for another console war discussion with Happydoug and anybody else who would like to add in a good point (no whining about not having the system yet.... you can use this opportunity to find out if you want one when they're available.)

So anyway, here's my review.  It's a very nice, very compact system.  It does exactly what I want it to do, plays games. The controller is comfortable, not perfectly comfortable (I think I'd have preferred to waive my rumble support in favor of not having the annoying bump on the backside of the controller because fingers can become cramped if you hold the thing wrong.)  However, the controller is highly functional.  I know everybody whined about how certain games simply cannot play the same as on the PS2 (SSX comes to mind.)  However, after playing SSX on the PS2 and Tricky on the Cube I'd have to say I prefer the Cube version.  The control stick (NOT being so far down my thumb is completly horizontal and cramps like a mother effer) is very comfortable and it feels like there's a bit more sensitivity and control.  The L and R buttons work out just fine, as does the A, B, X, & Y buttons.  Now I know everybody complains about the "weird" z button on the top, and it did feel a tad bit strange to me at first too, but now I totally love it and have absolutely no problem hitting it.  Although, I think it would have been far more wise for Nintendo to skimp on the "finger hugging" shape of the R button on the forward facing end and just leave that space open so your finger can more naturally slide over to the Z button, but it's not THAT big an issue to overcome.  The analog L and R buttons are alright, I'd feel the analog a bit more if there were more resistance but, well, I don't really give a rats ass about analog buttons anyway.

I guess I'll just leave it at that for now.  I've still got more studying to do for finals this week.

[Happydoug]

okay, it took  me a while but here are my comments.

>>It's a very nice, very compact system
I am in 100% agreement with you here.  Anyone who says or thinks otherwise does not know what makes a good game system, or is biased against nintendo for some reason.  A TON of power in such a small box, VERY user friendly, great potential for gameplay, graphics, etc.

>>The controller is comfortable...(truncated for brevity's sake)
I like the controller.  I still prefer the PS dual shock style controllers, because the shoulder buttons are all accessible and easily used, and the simple symmetrical geometry of the rest of the dual shock means never having to look down after only a couple of hours of gameplay to figure out what button is what.  That said, there are good points for the NGC controller.  The left analog stick is perfect.  the d-pad would be better served as the four-part pad of the dual shock type (why haven't other controllers copied this wonderful d-pad innovation?), but the left analog stick could not be better placed.  the right stick (the "c" button) is however too small, and is not very functional at all.  The big A button is cool, and the other face buttons are suprisingly functional if highly unsymmetrical. the z, l, and r buttons i agree with you... i could do without the finger hugging of the L and R, but for the most part the controller is good, functional, and will work well for most games you could possibly think of playing.  And even with these criticisms, After playing with the GC for a few hours at a demo, i have to admit that it did "feel" very, very good playing with it, and it was very user-friendly.  I also think this controller will fit the hands of anyone from the age of 4 or 5 on up to everyone but the top 3% of biggest hands in the world, so that is also a plus.

As far as the analog functions of the controller, i find that the most important anolog function (that of the left analog stick) is of superior quality to any anolog stick out there, in terms of control and accuracy.  I didn't see any functionality in the games i demoed with the analog function of the buttons, so my thoughts there are as of yet incomplete.

will i buy a NGC?  I honestly have to say it will depend on the games.  so far i have to say no, there is no system seller out there for me.  although if the NGC has more innovative games like Pikmin coming down the pipe, I will definitely be there.  I want to play Pikmin so bad, but with the glut of AAA games on the PS2 i barely have time for my ps2 games.  If the GC starts to compile a glut of AAA games like ps2 then i'll have to consider it.

hey mommar, you play pikmin yet?  i want to see what you think of it.

peace,
HD

[luceluna]

i must confess, i sold my N64 a year or so ago when i needed the money... but in terms of gameplay and style, it beat its rivals hands-down. nintendo is like the mac of the gameplaying world these days, and i guess that can act either for or against it depending on your view. i know plenty of people in full-on denial in regards to macs and their intuitiveness/elegance/simplicity (HI LAURIE! ), and i think the same goes for nintendo.

i'm really looking foward for a domestic release over here.... i may end up adding it to my (way-too-long) wishlist, along with a home studio and another plane ticket to America

[Happydoug]

ugh, i did not like the n64 that much.  the controller was rediculous, the games were yeah, okay - i liked goldeneye, mario kart, rogue squadron, and um, um...? zelda was okay i think.  but there just weren't as many number of games that were that great as compared to ps1.  The football games were better, the soccer games were better, the car driving games were better, the rpgs were MUCH better, n64 didn't even have any survival horror... i could go on. Suffice it to so that while i had a bit of fun with other people's n64's, i've had  lot more fun with other people's SNES and Sega genesis's.  and the ps1 was my favorite game machine until ps2, which is now my fav, and probably will stay that way even if i end up with a GC.

but then again, like i said, if there are  a bunch of games like pikmin that really change how games are played, i'm always opened to a new experience.

peace,
HD

[Poeticsiren]

Macs suck


BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHA

waves a dan     ;D

[Mommar]

See, I have to disagree about the Dual-shock controller because I have issues with the comfort of the two extra L and R buttons.  I don't find them easily accessible because suddenly my brace for the rest of the controller is gone when so many fingers are up top (I press buttons REALLY hard, so this is mainly just an issue I have.)  And the buttons on the dual shock being easily remembered has nothing to do with how Sony laid out the controls.... it's because they were stolen from the SNES, of course we already know where they all are.  Basically, you're trying to compare the GCN and SNES controllers (plus two buttons and some weak analogs, to me they're not in a very good position at all.)  I still think the analog needs to be moved up a little, my thumb cramps up way too much out at a vertical angle like that.  And I also disagree with you about the four button digital pad, I've hated that configuration from day one.  It's always hurt my thumb to use the PS digital pad (although I braved the thing for Metal Gear: Solid and Castlevania: Symphony of The Night.)  
 
 I don't know which games you had a chance to test out for a few hours but based on Luigi's Mansion and SSX I think the C-stick works out just fine, and is still easily within reach for somebody with hands as small as mine.  Right now the C-stick isn't used for too many things but I'm certain developers with creative minds can get some good ideas (I already discussed an idea I had with my brother about a WipeOut game for GCN that would be sweet with the c-stick.)  Oh yeah, if you want a demo of just how accurate the analoge stick on the Cube can be, try out Super Monkey Ball.  Some of that stuff is absolutely insane... it's quite a challenging and innovative game too (if you aren't man enough to handle cute. LOL)  

I haven't played Pikmin yet, to be honest is hasn't really caught my attention.  I'm too busy trying to collect every last trophy in Super Smash Bros. Melee (this game is DAMN addictive.)  It's way more then any fighting game anyway.

As for innovative games, Nintendo was the inventor of innovative.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that Nintendo will have some innovative games.

I think the N64 is viewed very unfarily.  I think most people's issue with the controller was that they never used it that long because they all ran over to the Playstation because it had prerendered movies (most people I know liked the Playstation better just because of that... morons.)  I liked the controller, hands down it is the most comfortable one I've ever held.  I had no trouble with the buttons or layout.  I also think Nintendo had some very good games.  If you want innovation, remember that Mario 64 was the FIRST 3-D action platformer.  Playstation and N64 had a lot of knock off's of that afterwards (none of them bested Mario though.)  I don't think very many people ever played Blast Corps. but Rare set a new standard on difficulty and innovation with that one.  And there was the token Goldeneye... but everybody knows that game.  Lets see, some other games that were really great.  Umm, well Turok was a break through when it came to the kind of control scheme used on a console game.  It was a really great and comfortable way to play FPS's... and the game was quite fun too (the subsequent sequels were rather let downs though.)  Mischief Makers was another game nobody ever played, basically a side scrolling shooter, but it had an interesting twist which was really fun and innovative.  Some of the boss fights were really enjoyable too.  There were a number of really innovative games which never made it to the US though, which is a shame, although they would never have been played either.  Actually, one of the best damn games I've ever played was Conker's Bad Fur Day.  It was basically Mario 64 but with a lot more different playing options and scenarios... and the humor was just excellent.  Diddy Kong Racing was another game that was pretty innovative.  Instead of just copying Mario Kart Rare decided to add an entire adventure element to the game which gave a lot of reply value and fun also.  Well, I think the N64 was underrated anyway.  I hope this doesn't happen to the Cube too, it'd be a shame to lose the classic game makers to big name corporations (like what happened to Sega already.)

[Happydoug]

i think your most recent post here is sort of how things are in the video gaming industry.  the n64 may have had better games in certain genres, but the ps1 had prerendered graphics.  You know what? I'm a sucker for prerendered.  I'd much rather have a game's objective to get to the next anime movie scene than to collect a trophy or get a star or something.  And that's how a lot of the mass marketed people do it too.  after my NES, i left console gaming for years and headed to my computer.  the ps1 got me back in slowly, and the ps2 has me addicted.

but again to your recent post here.  most of the games you mentioned (except turok and goldeneye) were geared towards youngsters.  Now, this does make some business sense as you need to build a fanbase early, or else you have no gamers as adults.  But i'm just not a big kart racing/platforming fan.    I'm an action/rpg/sports fan.  actually i haven't played a platforming game and enjoyed since NES days.  I did play sonic 1 through once, but i didn't really like it that much.

And as far as the controllers, i think there are people that will still tell you the snes controller is one of the best ever.  but the c-stick... why is it so small?  why not just make it like the other analog?  weird.  and the N64 controller, the whole left side, (the d-pad and l button) were basically useless b/c most games you used the analog and z buttons.  as comfortable as that is, it is bad design to completely make on part of the controller inaccessible.  I'll admit the four shoulder buttons aren't quite that useful used together, but they are there and reachable, and as long as they aren't main buttons (which they usually aren't) it's all good.

aside: i think the one of the best action/rpgs i've ever played was Mario RPG on snes.  I can't remember ever having a more fun time playing that game.  Just sheer fun, all the way.  So yea, i can stand some kiddie stuff.  but unfortunately nintendo does not have enough mass-market kind of stuff that has gotten me there.  that's why sony and it's third parties currently own the largest market share (and my life, currently).

and as addicting as super monkey ball is, i'm sure final fantasy 10 will be just as addictive... in a different way of course.

and oh btw, i saw the combination panasonic dvd/ngc.  it looks interesting, definitely more functional than the ps2 or xbox in terms of dvd play usability.

and i really do disagree about the n64 as being viewed "unfairly." nintendo did a lot of things wrong with it (you know the criticisms, i won't repeat them). the fact that they still made good profit and are still a great video game company is a testament to their business strategies and talent at making games, and i give them mad respect for it.

one more thing: i just played a little dreamcast over the weekend.  the DC controller has to be the absolute worst controller i have ever felt.  i feel bad criticizing it like that, but that's just IMO.  the NGC/dual shock type of controller is becoming more and more the standard nowadays.  a combination of the two may eventually create the most ergonimically useful controller.

but until then i'm back to playing my GTA3.  woo hoo!

[luceluna]

doug doug doug!! how can you NOT find Super Mario 64 an immensely playable and enjoyable game?! it's  magical in every single regard.... and in terms of gameplay, kicks the ass of anything playable on a Sony  

mebbe i'm just juvenile at heart, but i find Mario Kart and Super Mario wonderful. they just seem to have so much more soul injected into them than anything on playstation, prolly because they were made inhouse.

another game i love is Donkey Kong on the gameboy that's one addictive mofo

[Mommar]

Well, actually, most of those games I mentioned were NOT geared towards kids.  Blast Corps was all about smashing buildings and demolishing stuff... I don't know if that's kiddie, but it sure is violent (and I believe that falls under the "adult" category now, whatever.)  And Mishief Makers wasn't for kids either ( the silly title came from poor Japanese to English translation.)  It wasn't for kids at all, I enjoyed it anyway.  And Mario has never been for kids.  Sure it's in a wacky world (probably induced by Opium LOL) but it's just intended for fans of video games.  I think the real problem is with the advent of the PS Sony suddenly marketed the thing as for the "cool" kids.  I believe Penny Arcade said it best, "you've already got your girlfriends and cars and groupies... what do you need with MY video games???"  What I'm saying is, suddenly they had this quasi status sybol kinda thing and it wasn't cool play the "kiddie" games anymore because the 13 year olds were "adults" now (in their own little kid minds anyway.)  Meanwhile, us videogame playing geeks who like our games FUN got screwed.  Then it was about the prettiest digitized picture, or the most gallons of bloody rushing from a cut, or the largest polygon pushing breasts a console could muster... utterly worthless, but suddenly this became "adult" and "cool" and, oh boy, could Sony deliver.

Now I understand the fun in some pretty pre-rendered graphics, I remember when Command & Conquer first came out. It was fun to beat the game with the NOD just so you could choose a monument to blast with the Ion Cannon at the end of the game... but if that's all I was playing for I'd get SO bored with it, the real time combat was the best part of the game and that's what I got it for.  I believe your idea that playing games only to collect items is a bit off too, otherwise Diablo wouldn't be the wild hit it is.  The whole game is based around finding new crap (sure the cinema scenes are beautiful, but they definently don't make the game.  Most people I know just skip them.) but what makes the game is searching for new stuff... which is also why I think Super Smash Bros: Melee is such an incredibly addictive game too.  The way I see it, if somebody is only playing for the next pretty thing, no offense intended here, then you're a pretty shallow person.  Most people just want that instant, outside gratification (as with their music and everything else now-a-days) and I think that's a shame because I can remember playing Pac-Man on our old Atari 2600, propped up in my dad's lap, before I ever knew how to walk.  There wasn't an ounce of graphical beauty to that game, it was just fun, and intriguing.  It was only about the game.  Which is what I think has kept Nintendo afloat.  And that's why I'm going to stick with Nintendo, it's about the games, not about marketing or turning a profit (which is Sony and Microsoft's deal.)  Of course the PS and PS2 had/have some great games, I played the hell out of Castlvania and Metal Ger: Solid and I'd be playing GTA3 if I owned a PS2... but I can always wait for the PC version (which will trounce the PS2 version, me thinks), but I don't see that being an issue anymore.  The Cube has the big honkin' discs now so developers can be as sloppy with their coding as they want to be (I'm sorry, if you don't understand all of the intricasies of programming you wouldn't realize the incredible elegance required for cartridge based games... what was done on the N64 with Zelda and some of the RARE games is absolute genious, but then us smart kids never usually get recognized I suppose.) And Nintendo has cut cost way down, if people quit bitching about the different sizes in disks (there's such a thing as multiple disk games... those disks only cost a few cents to make for crying out loud) then everybody should be happy.

I agree, the DC controller is HELL on your hands.  Those damn buttons on the top of the back fins totally destroy my fingers... and the stick needs to be moved down a bit to prevent cramping.  Actually, I think every Sega controller sucked.  LOL  The Genesis controller was a fricking brick (for a kid in middle school it's not easy reaching that damn A button.)  

Oh yeah, right now at IGNcube they've got several wonderful interviews with the creaters of the Gekko processor at IBM and the graphics chip at Art-X.  They're VERY interesting articles, they've given me extra faith in Nintendo's abilities to appease the masses and the game developers at the same time.  If anything, I respect the Electrical Engineering prowess of IBM and ATI anyway. LOL

[Mommar]

Oh, almost forgot, Conker's Bad Fur Day was NOT for kids either.  There was enough swearing and sexual content to make a sailor blush.

[Flashpoint]

I still maintain that one of my greatest (or is that the most sad/obsessive?;D) gaming accomplishments is when my friends and I finally got every platinum medal on Blast Corps.  (It only took 2 or 3 months).  We didn't get anything special for it - but who cares.  I've yet to meet another person that has done it.  <br>
--Flashpoint (Matthew Craig)

[luceluna]

GO MO!!!! you summed it up far more eloquently than i ever could ;D

nintendo's got the magic....  

(Doug, one day i will force you to play and ENJOY an N64 )

[Happydoug]

just to add to my arguments (the rest stand): nintendo cares as much about you the gamer as does sega, EA, or even sony or m$.  they are about the bottom line.  they may have a different philosophy in getting there, but they are just as much about profit as the others.

peace,
HD

[Mommar]

Well obviously every companies bottom line is money or else nobody working on any of those projects would be compensated for their valuable work and time.  They have to stay in business.  The point is that they're method IS the correct way, the favorable one in my opinion anyway.  They're making money by taking the time put a little magic in each one of their games... Sony and Microsoft are just looking for another cash turner.

['Guest']

"It's way more then any fighting game anyway."

uhhhh....u dont wanna get into that

I LOVE the PS controller, N64 controller is a freaking joke, there is a reason why they copied the SNES controller...and the X on the pad for the PS2 controller is a bitch at first, just gotta get used to it mahfriend, PS also isn't as much of a graphical joke as N64...N64 tends to have smalllll graphics..or baren scapes. but then again PS is pretty lame in that category also...all I know is that I cannot STAND N64, i dont know about gamecube, and I'm livin' with my PS2 but its mostly a DvD player and MtvMusicGenerator.

Street Fighter rox
.~*^POof!^*~.